Islam and Muhammad

This debate took place on Liberal Forum between me and a poster named Justice Seeker. Justice Seeker seems to think that Saudi Arabia is responsible for the radicalization of Islam. I reiterate merely their statements, without their quotes of me, for brevity.

I will also add my comments outside of the quotes to help clarify terms or disagreements.

subzer0 response:

Somewhat right.

What it is, is a Muhammad problem. http://geopolicy.wor…islam/muhammad/

He directly participated in warfare. So therefore Islam mandates a Muslim directly participate in warfare, or at least further Islam through stealth Jihad.

Justice Seeker, on 26 October 2010 – 05:06 PM, said:

You can’t really say that he legalizes suicide bombing though because whenever he invaded someone he never used force on them. He just sent in an army and invaded their nations.Also, even if he did that the Islamic religion states that there is no compulsion in religion, so all these things that the prophet said about killing other people were when the Islamic peoples were being invaded before.Therefore, according to the Islamic religion defensive Jihad is allowed but offensive Jihad is prohibited. That’s why terrorists try to always claim that they’re using defensive jihad. They would never openly say that they’re doing offensive jihad because they would be called out for sacrilege.

subzero response:

Defensive jihad is a propaganda term. Jihad, the furthering of Islam, was exorcised by Muhammad by the sword. The founder of Islam.

The stealth jihad link was supposed to be here: http://www.centerfor…%2009142010.pdf

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 11:03 AM, said:

Muhammed didn’t kill anyone when he conquered those territories. The territories he went to willingly surrendered him and he didn’t use any force on them. Also, offensive jihad is only permissible by interpreted of the sunni religions but even still it doesn’t permit for terrorism (the Qu’ran prohibits it). Defensive jihad is the only thing required by the Qu’ran.…Defensive_Jihad

subzer0 response:

Muhammad directly participated in war to further Islam. He is a warmonger and a pedophile. Point blank.…t.html#008.3425

Your history starts at 1979 it would seem. My history of Islam begins with the founder of it in the 7th Century AD.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 01:20 PM, said:

He did. But that doesn’t mean that Islam is a religion that promotes violence.It just means that the prophet was a warmonger who promoted violence.All that does is prove the theory that religion can be manipulated to serve the leader’s agenda. It doesn’t prove that the Islamic religion is inherently violent. Go back to stormfront.

subzer0 response:
It was never manipulated. The founder of Islam, the actual PATTERN OF CONDUCT (Qur’an 33:21) for Muslims to copy, directly participated in war. If the FOUNDER who wrote/put forth tenets of Islam directly participated in war, then yes Muslims must mirror this PATTERN OF CONDUCT.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 01:33 PM, said:

Prophet Mohammad didn’t tell his followers to mindlessly kill anyone whom they felt like. He gave them rules as to what kinds of conduct they should follow when they’re engaged in a war and he also discouraged against bloodshed and favored mercy.

subzer0 response:
Muhammad directly participated in warfare to spread Islam. Therefore a Muslim should as well.

Its easy to remain consistent with the Qur’an when all you gotta say, is that its DEFENSIVE. Then the killing is a free-for-all because Muslims are considered fighting a just war.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 01:49 PM, said:

Islamic people are expected to follow the prophet and the Qu’ran. They can’t follow the prophet when he breaks what the Qu’ran says. That’s something prophets do but that’s not something people can do. The Qu’ran’s words is Gods words and killing of innocent people is prohibited under the Islamic religion. How long will it take for you to understand this?

subzer0 response:
The prophet Muhammad never broke ranks with the Qur’an. In fact he is a pattern of conduct to be followed according to the Qur’an (Qur’an 33:21). Plus you are misleading, Islamic adherents also follow Hadiths.

They are innocent people until your precious little defensive jihad tenet is enforced, then anybody is fair game if authorized. I think Islam is violent, people have a choice to follow it or not. Islam I hate, people I love.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 01:57 PM, said:

He did break ranks with the Qu’ran when he started killing people that didn’t have anything to do with the Islamic religion. What you’re trying to do is to say that a whole religion is violent and I won’t bite on it.
Notice how he has just admitted that Muhammad killed people. He has also found himself in a contradiction, supporting that Muhammad is a pattern of conduct, but not fully because the Qur’an is against it. So according to Justice Seeker, in one place the Qur’an is against Muhammad, and in another it is pro Muhammad. That is a contradiction.

subzer0 response:
So the Qur’an is inherently contradictory. Because first you are to follow Muhammads pattern of conduct according to the Qur’an, but apparently only selected behavior? Which is it? Is a Muslim to strive to be like Muhammad in all ways or not?

Obviously a devout Muslim, will want to manifest the behavior of Muhammad in his/her life. Much like a Christian would want to manifest Christ’s loving/sacrificial behavior in his/her life.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 01:57 PM, said:

Defensive jihads only happen when a nation transgresses on their territory or when they occupy them in the Middle-East. It’s why we shouldn’t be in the Middle-East in the first place. 9-11 was illegitimate because Al-Qaeda targeted US civilians but it was in response to the US occupation of the regions. Suicide terrorism is logical and it attacks military targets of states they have grievances against. Only 7% of Muslims engage in this sort of behavior though so your theory that all Muslims have to follow this code of conduct or do is complete BS.

subzer0 response:

Al Qaeda is merely taking it to the enemy like Muhammad did to further Islam. My theory stands that Muslims choose to or not to follow Muhammad regardless if there is 200% or 1% that engage in that behavior.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:08 PM, said:

A lot of the versus in the Qu’ran are frequently mistranslated.

subzer0 response:
None of these examples deal with anything of substance dealing with my position that Muhammad is a beautiful pattern of conduct for Muslims to follow (Qur’an 33:21). You then said, Muhammad went against the Qur’an, which would contradict the Qur’an in saying that he is to be followed in all ways. When and where did Muhammad violate the Qur’an? If he did then he is contradictory and the Qur’an is contradictory and thus lacks credibility, and thus Islam relies on a foundation of lies and contradictions.

If Muhammad followed the Qur’an and is indeed a beautiful pattern of conduct, then Muslims should mirror Muhammad and directly participate in war to further Islam.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:14 PM, said:

You’re a mindless sheep and you can’t think for yourself. You’ve proven that with your posts. Prophet Mohammad told his followers not to kill anyone and to show mercy on other people. His followers would have to follow his actions but also the words that he says. Therefore, they are also doing their religious duty to be merciful to one another.You probably won’t ever change your mind. I’m done arguing with you, you right-wing neocon nazi.

subzer0 response:
Muhammad directly participated in war to further Islam. Indeed Muslims should follow that in word and action if they are following the Qur’an and hadiths.

Innocents is declared/defined by the defensive jihad fatwa issued, not the Qur’an, it is to broad from the statements you posted.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:41 PM, said:

And Jacob and Aaron and the people in the bible weren’t perverts?

subzer0 response:
They are not founders of the religion, Christ is. Also the fact those actions are CLEARLY defined as sinful is something not done in the Qur’an regarding the founder of Islam. Muhammads actions are glorified. Also we are talking about the Qur’an not the Bible.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:41 PM, said:

The people in the bible had multiple wives and bought women and somehow that’s less wrong than being a pedo? They probably were dating people much younger than they were as well, especially when they got to a really old age (in the bible from the literal translation).

subzer0 response:
When the Bible explicitly details them as man, and not to be followed because they are example of what NOT to do, then yes it is better than Muhammad who is a pedophile and a warmonger and which the Qur’an and Hadiths proudly proclaim as how Muslims should lead their life. You are defending the horrible actions of Muhammad. You defend a horrible role model and pattern of conduct.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:50 PM, said:

The Qu’ran lists what Islamic people can or cannot do. Again, Islamic people are expected to obey the Qu’ran like they are expected to obey the prophet. My point is that they can’t obey the prophet when it directly contradicts with the Qu’ran because the Qu’ran’s words are their literal translation of God’s words. So when the prophet declares war on someone they can only admire them at best, but they can’t do it because they can’t declare war on unbelievers. But they can follow what the prophet says and tells them.

subzer0 response:
When does the prophet Muhammad by action contradict the Qur’an?

If they can’t do what Muhammad did, why is he considered a pattern of conduct by the Qur’an?

Muhammad is a do as I say, not as I do, kind of prophet huh? lol

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 02:50 PM, said:

I am not defending him or anyone. I’m just saying that it is not required for Muslims to always be violent all the time and kill anyone whom they see. If that were the case there than all Muslims would be going around killing non-believers and always attacking nations that don’t believe in Islam. But that isn’t the case. So… your theory doesn’t hold a candle to reality.

subzer0 response:
Dude there is a worldwide global terrorism problem in case you didn’t notice, in which they are attacking/killing non-believers in non-Muslim states. Also I talked about stealth jihad, which of course you missed as a point of mine, which allows you to write this crap.

subzer0 response:Actually, if you are a Muslim you follow Muhammad as a pattern of conduct, that is all I am saying.

You have yet to contradict Muhammad as a pattern of conduct for Muslims to follow.

Also freshen up on your Battle of Badr history, one of the few battles directly participated in by Muhammad mentioned in the Qur’an.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 03:04 PM, said:

Thanks for letting me know once more.Thank you.It’s good to know you’re a neo-Nazi. Thanks.

Straw response:
By lowering yourself to these standards, you are clearly losing. You are one of the most respected posters on this site in my opinion and are much better than this.

Justice Seeker, on 27 October 2010 – 03:16 PM, said:

You’re just saying the same thing over and over and you’re not listening to anything I say. I’m done arguing with you.

subzer0 response:
Again to prove your case. Please contradict Muhammads actions by showing that the Qur’an says not to follow Muhammad or that what he did with the peaceful tenets is a sin. If you can then inherently the Qur’an is contradictory, if you cannot, then what I state is consistent and what you state is wishful thinking.

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